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<  DeepPulse  ~  Disgusted

PostPosted: October 9th, 2009, 6:17 am
User avatarAdminPosts: 612Location: Los AngelesJoined: November 19th, 2005, 10:22 am
Disgusted at [ B E Y O N D ] being available as an illegal download so quickly. Means one of the first direct orders made it available.
Way to go with the support and making me wonder why I bother.
The problem is only getting worse.


Last edited by B on October 9th, 2009, 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: October 9th, 2009, 7:00 am
User avatarPosts: 76Location: SwedenJoined: October 31st, 2008, 10:57 am
Don't let these people get in the way of your creativity. They will always exist, and they will steadily increase in numbers. You could always report the blogs that publish it, that's a first step. However, your work will always be [ B E Y O N D ] things like these, and even if I know you have to make a living, try to disregard this to the best of your ability and focus on promoting the legal ways of buying the album as well as you can. Try appealing to their humane sides, explaining that you're glad that they're interested in your music but sincerely beg them to pay for it as well, since you need it in order to continue as an artist. Causing them guilt rather than disowning them is always the best weapon in these situations. Rest assured, those of us with enough devotion and economic means of supporting you will continue to do so.


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PostPosted: October 9th, 2009, 8:04 am
Posts: 167Location: EnglandJoined: December 30th, 2006, 11:44 am
Bet it sounds proper shite on their pc speakers, too. Haven't a clue what your sales are like, but I'd imagine you have a core amount of people who buy every release.

On the flipside; I'm sure there are artists who, without the exposure of a download, wouldn't have sold as many records. Like it or not, given the option (which they now have), people will always want to try before they buy (which they SHOULD do if they like it).


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PostPosted: October 9th, 2009, 8:23 am
User avatarAdminPosts: 612Location: Los AngelesJoined: November 19th, 2005, 10:22 am
I saw that one site (out of dozens) alone had 1,200 downloads of the album so far.
Clearly those aren't all people trying before they buy.
Sales are considerably down in direct relation to the increasing amount of illegal downloads.
The whole point of these limited releases has been to try and make something worth supporting directly, so it's particularly disappointing in this case.


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PostPosted: October 9th, 2009, 9:13 am
User avatarPosts: 76Location: SwedenJoined: October 31st, 2008, 10:57 am
And it worked. The exclusivity of owning a limited copy drove my eagerness to buy the album even further. Had it been an unlimited release, even less people would've bought it. You made the right tactical choice, but even so, this is extremely difficult to get around. Once again, I advise you to make a MySpace post or something similar in which you appeal to the guilty side of the downloaders. Shed a few virtual tears. I really think it's the most effective way. I completely understand your anger and frustration, but it won't bite on simple-minded people like this.


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PostPosted: October 9th, 2009, 1:59 pm
Posts: 7Joined: September 3rd, 2009, 6:35 pm
This entire illegal downloading frenzy is gotten out of hand. I wish there was a way to hunt down the person who created the first torrent. That way B could have his way with him. :twisted:


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PostPosted: October 10th, 2009, 3:47 pm
Posts: 45Joined: December 26th, 2008, 8:04 pm
You should be "disgusted"... and pissed AND OUTRAGED.
This is an OUTRAGE.
EVERYONE should be OUTRAGE!

Illegal downloading and file sharing is NOT a victimless crime.

The hardest blow is felt by the artist, who's artistic creations are stolen, violated, and whored out by these moralless pimps. This IS a Crime.

The artists are the primary victims, the music is the second victim and lastly when these gifted people bow out of sharing there talent with the world because of these assholes WE ALL loose out. The Crime is perpetuated as we (the world) will no longer be inspired by them or their creations. I do not think that there is one person reading this that has NOT been inspired, influenced or moved by Lustmord.

In the anonymity of the internet those faceless criminals feel confident that they are out of reach from the arm of the law. And you know what, they are. People do it/buy it because they know they can get away with it. I know of no national committee or government sanctioned task force that is in charge of investigating or enforcing laws against illegal downloading and file sharing. They probably exist in some capacity, but I have never heard of them. I have not seen them take action or enforce the law. Their is more care and diligence to action when someone says a potty word on the radio or TV. See http://www.fcc.gov/eb/oip/

So who should be responsible? The pimps selling illegal downloads? The John's buying the illegal downloads? Good luck catching them. An easier and more effective solution would be to fine the site and server providers who allow these illegal downloads on. Just like the radio stations are responsible for the content that goes out on their air.

Coming back around again. Society is desensitized by these kind of crimes because they see no victim. Unlike the smiling face in a school photo of a child that has been kidnapped or sexually abused or graphic photos of maimed or abused animals. People will cry OUTRAGE to that. But music has no face; only the face of it's creators.

But there lies the solution.
In a highly saturation publicity campaign, if every musician everywhere where NOT to release any music for one month in a combined effort to bring awareness to this crime, then that might prompt the governments to do their job and enforce the law. What if musicians everywhere marched on congress and demanded tougher laws, more enforcement and action? The news agencies would eat that up like the latest missing child abduction.

I know I'm grasping at straws here. Most in the music world acts like Celts; independent and separate. We only see musicians come together to bring awareness and support to a causes like 911 or Katrina. Well I would say bringing awareness and gaining support against illegal downloading and file sharing would be a damn good cause. It would should be the most important cause to them as it would be their own cause.


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PostPosted: October 12th, 2009, 8:27 am
Posts: 6Location: FranceJoined: October 12th, 2009, 7:56 am
Mister Lustmord. I'm really a big fan of you, of your work. I'm very respectfull for you and your carrier. I bought this album (and a lot of your other albums), I'm very proud to be one of the 1000 lucky owners of this cd... and... I downloaded it too !
Why ? Just to have an idea of what I've bought on your website, before to recieve it in my mailbox, here, in France. Just curiosity.
I also downloaded older albums which are really hard to find. What else can I do ?
Do you really think I'm a bastard who did't care about the creative artist ???

Wake up man ! You're in 2009 !!
People often download music... this is how it works now, the rules have changed. And they are not wrong.

I realy undertsand this persons (and I know a few of them), who lived out of US, who don't want to wait 1 month to get the album, who don't want to pay 8$ for the shipping, who don't want to buy an album if they don't know what it's like, so they just want to listen to it... and if they love what they heard, will order it.
And, when you release a 1000ex limited album, you must know that some guys do not want to be part of these 1000 buyers, or are to late to order it, and some of that guys will try to have it by other ways... even if they have to steal it.
This is how it works for now.

I really hope one day, the artists will understand it, and adapt themselves to this new reality by changing their way to produce music and find a real solution to it.
You really do an hard job man, and this is hard times for it. Good luck.


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PostPosted: October 12th, 2009, 8:45 am
User avatarAdminPosts: 612Location: Los AngelesJoined: November 19th, 2005, 10:22 am
Youggo wrote:
I also downloaded older albums which are really hard to find. What else can I do ?


Hard to find ? They're all easily accessible legally on iTunes.
There's no excuse for stealing.

Quote:
I really hope one day, the artists will understand it, and adapt themselves to this new reality by changing their way to produce music and find a real solution to it.


You don't think we (many professional musicians and label owners I have as friends) haven't been trying to find a solution for the last few years ?

And how do you propose a musician is going to be able to make a living, to pay those monthly bills, and fund the next release ?

I know people steal the music all the time. It's a fact of life, it was particularly disappointing that [ B E Y O ND ] was made available by one of the people who recived the very first direct orders, I had hoped people would get it.

I don't know what you do for a living, but I suggest you work for a few months and don't get paid and see how that works for you.


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PostPosted: October 12th, 2009, 9:11 am
User avatarPosts: 1Location: In the woodsJoined: September 13th, 2009, 3:25 am
I agree with you. It is a shame that more and more people download copies illegal. There is no way of supporting the musician.
I share your emotions B.



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PostPosted: October 12th, 2009, 10:07 am
Posts: 6Location: FranceJoined: October 12th, 2009, 7:56 am
B wrote:
Youggo wrote:
I also downloaded older albums which are really hard to find. What else can I do ?
Hard to find ? They're all easily accessible legally on iTunes. There's no excuse for stealing.
Yes, but I want to buy a real CD, not a mp3 I can get everywhere for free. This is the old law of the offer and demand.
Your albums are not all available, even if you re-released a lot of old projects recently (thank you for that by the way). For exemple, I was looking for Carbon-Core since a couple of years... and finaly I downloaded it. Shame on me.

B wrote:
Youggo wrote:
I really hope one day, the artists will understand it, and adapt themselves to this new reality by changing their way to produce music and find a real solution to it.
You don't think we (many professional musicians and label owners I have as friends) haven't been trying to find a solution for the last few years ?
I know that. But actually there is no real answer to this problem, and I also feel sad and concerned about this situation.

B wrote:
And how do you propose a musician is going to be able to make a living, to pay those monthly bills, and fund the next release ?
I don't know what you do for a living, but I suggest you work for a few months and don't get paid and see how that works for you.
And you know what ? Surprisingly I am an artistic manager and promoter (for classical ensembles). I work alone and my entire life depend of my artists activity. So, I'm the first concerned because, even if my artists are well payed, this is really not my case. Actually, I can't payed myself because I don't get enough benefits. So I know what it is to work hard for nothing, and this is all the more sad that it is my passion (like your music for you).

I understand you reaction. It must be really disappointing for a musician to see that one of your "best fan" buy an album and offer it to everybody for free. Sad times, but please, don't blame the downloaders for choosing the easiest and cheaper way.


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PostPosted: October 12th, 2009, 10:08 am
Posts: 1Joined: October 12th, 2009, 9:03 am
Hey B, sorry to hear that you're bummed out over [ B E Y O N D ].

While I can see why you're upset, I would like to take a few moments though to explain some of the "other" points of view out there. This is NOT meant to be an inflammatory post, nor is it meant to drastically change your point of view. It's merely meant as a way to express some viewpoints of people that might fail to come across at first glance.

First off, I'd like to say that whether it's for better or for worse, the downloading/pirating generation and way-of-life is upon us. And it's never going to go away. I'm not saying that it should have ended up like this, but whatever made it happen, has happened. All the posts on here and on your MySpace that say things to the effect of "these guys need to be stopped" are utterly impossible. Unfortunately downloading music (and other media) is here to stay. We will never be able to eradicate it, and so we should stop being surprised when things like this happen. I'm not saying you can't feel upset. I'm just saying "what did you expect?" I wish more people were more decent human beings, and that all 1,200 pirates who downloaded your music decided to buy the album or donate to your cause. I honestly do. What's going to have to change is not the pirating system (since it most likely will only evolve to be more efficient) but the moral system that people downloading the material have.

The second thing I'd like to make clear is that I am an avid supporter of downloading music. To make my reasons for this a little more clear (and make me sound like a little bit less of an asshole) I'll have to cover a little bit of my musical history:

Growing up I often proclaimed that "I hate music." I was a young boy who had never heard anything worth-while on the radio (since I never turned it on and when I did, all I seemed to find were commercials.) This slowly changed when I got into high school. I found one band that I adored and asked for an iPod for christmas. I slowly began to fill it with the few CDs I had and that I borrowed from my mother. Nothing much though. I rarely bought CDs and still didn't fancy the idea of turning on the radio.

Then one magical day, a friend of mine showed me how to download torrents. All of a sudden I had the world of music at my fingertips. It was like a drug. I could listen to (sample) whole CDs. I found many I wanted to eventually own, once I wasn't a broke teenager anymore.

[This is another "fair point" for downloading music. Digital downloads and CDs cost money. Often times a fair bit of money too, considering downloads don't even offer you anything physical to own after you shell out $10 (often times only slightly less than the physical CD.) And many people who listen to music and download albums are teenagers who either have little or no source of steady income, nor a credit card, which is necessary to buy anything online.]

Eventually I started to make some money to support my desire for CDs. But I also had other habits I needed to spend cash on (e.g. video games.) That's about the time that I stumbled upon a music/torrent community. I began chatting on the forums and sharing musical tastes and suggestions. My music library and desire for CDs began to grow exponentially. I lost all interest in spending money on anything but my CDs. I even found my all-time-favorite artist by illegally downloading some of his CDs (I have since spent upwards of $800 obtaining his back-catalog.) I now had something in my life that brought me an unmatched amount of joy. So now, here I am. The proud owner of hundreds of CDs (and growing) and a thousand favorite artists.

[Almost every single band or artist that I listen to today (and *support* may I add) is NOT on the radio. If I had never begun the active downloading I did, I would have never been exposed to the bands I so enjoy today. My life would have never had that joy I had when I first heard my favorite artist for the first time. And I never would have bought all the CDs and gone to all the concerts I've gone to to see/support the artists. I'm sorry, but I'll be damned if I let someone take this away from me.]

So in summary, I am but one person who has had this kind of an experience. Every day I meet and chat with people who have gone through the same thing. I've helped people find new favorite artists, and helped artists make one more dedicated fan. Certainly you cannot sweep all of the "pirates" into the category of "fuckers".

Lastly, I would like to make one more point about (what I feel is) the majority of people who download CDs from the internet. While a lot of people "try before they buy", most people (I'm pretty sure) download a CD just because they think it "looks cool" or because there is a lot of hype around it. Most of these downloaders are people who would never buy the album. They simply would not pay for the music they download because they are not true fans of the art. If illegal download suddenly became impossible, they would most likely return to banal radio-listening (after a bunch of "complaining".) I have friends in real life like this. They just don't care enough to spend money on a little plastic disc that they'll never use or appreciate. Nor would they want to spend money on a digital download that they can find for free. And they don't have "favorite bands" (at least nothing original.) They are just very boring people when it comes to music, though they are very nice people in other respects. (They will go to concerts however, which makes it a little better, but it's still not perfect.)

So enough of my dissertation. I just hope you are able to walk away from this with a slightly shifted point of view. In no way do I advocate people shafting artists out of hard-earned money. I just think that file-sharing has opened the door for more people (possibly a different kind of person than from decades past.) While it's not exactly fair that someone puts CDs up online, nothing is stopping the people who download it from donating or buying the CD. Nothing except the people themselves. Which is why I avidly support people who fully embrace their love of music and know the importance of supporting the people who make it.

:idea:

Please don't hate me B for downloading music.


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PostPosted: October 12th, 2009, 10:10 am
User avatarPosts: 30Location: BelgiumJoined: March 31st, 2009, 11:09 am
I get requests from people to fill their music servers with the more exotic music I have in my collection. I always refuse. Most of these people are not hooligans or hillbilly moron inbreds...they just don't seem to understand that copying music illegally equals theft and hurts the artist. I always get the same remark "its just the one copy, your being selfish"...yeah right. I was shocked to hear that [B E Y O N D] was downloaded 1.200 times. There is an audience...apparently not a very respectful one.

BTW...did I mention on this forum that ARECIBO is a must have CD :wink:



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PostPosted: October 12th, 2009, 10:14 am
User avatarAdminPosts: 612Location: Los AngelesJoined: November 19th, 2005, 10:22 am
Jem666 wrote:
I was shocked to hear that [B E Y O N D] was downloaded 1.200 times.


That was just on ONE site in the first 3-4 days Jem. Multiply that by dozens of sites and over weeks and months, and for each release. While many wouldn't buy the album anyway, there are also many who would have otherwise, and it all adds p to a severe blow for those of us who do his kind of thing.


Last edited by B on October 22nd, 2009, 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: October 12th, 2009, 10:29 am
User avatarPosts: 30Location: BelgiumJoined: March 31st, 2009, 11:09 am
Devils Advocate... you bring your case with eloquence.

However I would like to challenge some points you make.

"Having no money" does not give a licence to steal.

Discovering music through illegal downloading...weak argument.

I discover all my music through word of mouth or by exploring artist and label websites and their respective link pages. Most artist have MySpace sites with samples. Damn...you would be surprised what you can find on amazon. Does that carry a risk of buying lemons...sure...but that's the thrill of the hunt , of discovering those little gems.

The WWW offers us great communities to explore new content...to abuse it by downloading illegal torrents is testimony of poor ethics.

I'm always on the prowl for new and inspiring music...THX to this site I discovered Soleilmoon with more than enough artist to keep me busy for a while.



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